Thread: Is google hitting directory links?

Been seeing this one discussed a lot on other forums, where google is hitting directories hard...dropping them out of rankings, etc.
Sphinn - Google Manually Penalizing Directories

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A link is on that page "Is Google hitting directory links"

Ohhh yes my son! Hitting them so fricken hard half the webmasters are needing "depends". Joe have I or have I not being saying for the life of me that standalone directories serve no purpose. People make them to get high PR and then sell link based on PR to other webmasters. The bottom line is if you take away the PR from those directories what value do they have? NADA ... NOTHING ..ZIPPO. And this is only the first round, the big boys like aviva, alive and directory dump got nailed. Any class B directories will get it next any directories in class c or higher don't rank anyways so it doesn't matter for them. I suspect and I predict that the next decapitation will occur in bidding directories and then Article sites!!!

BTW if you want to check if one of your directories has gotten hit, just search google for your brand name of the directory, if you can't be found in the first page you're done:

eg:

Aviva Directory

Directory Dump

Alive Directory

Well, one directory is still number one for the title.
Best Bidding Directory

The other is number 3 for the title.

Will see how my new directory fares.
It is number one right now for the title.

you know why they are getting hit right? Supposively because of link selling!

That and I think because in a lot of directories, the same anchor text and url is shown sitewide.

My reading of the whole thing is, don't sell sponsor links, etc.
But for a link to be on one page, seems to be okay.

Now I wonder about blogs???
Will google go after them if they have sponsor links, link blogs, etc?

Or any site with sitewide links.

BOttom line though, is that webmasters will continue buying links, but move more to directories and sites that have real traffic, not just page rank.

The way it used to be before google.

Google will go after any site it knows is actively selling links and does not effectively disclose them as paid links as per Matt Cutts

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the links these big directories have bought for themselves with anchor text such as 'Directory' 'Paid Directory' etc.

might be a combination of things

Who knows what this is or what it means... but the bottom line is that this effects much more than just these directories. If the link buying public gets scared then it effects the entire industry.

I don't think there's any need for panic with regards to link buying.
As long as links are a factor in SEO, there will be a market for them.
We just have to be careful about how and where we get them.

This is to be expected. I think the next target would be backlinks generated through article submission. Now if every avenue is penalized, just how are you going to get natural one way backlinks in the first place? Since you will have little traffic. The answer is simple; use Adwords to drive traffic.

Originally Posted by Grim

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the links these big directories have bought for themselves with anchor text such as 'Directory' 'Paid Directory' etc.

might be a combination of things

You may have a point there... I have long hoped that my natural, ie., completely organic links and traffic that KingBloom has will keep it from being penalized..

Either way, I have seen about a dozen or so of these threads about google killing directories.. I am not sure if I buy that entirely...

I've yet to see any solid evidence of this, aside from someone claiming that because they could not locate a directory ranked at number one by searching for it by name, that google must somehow be screwing them...

Again, I'm not sure I buy this...

Either way, I have never sought to gain 1000's of back links.. I have like 98 total. The domain is about 10 years old, the directory nearly 3 years old now... I've owned it and the domain since day one...

In any event, screwing with good directories would not be to Googles benefit... They stand to lose a lot more than they would gain. IMO..

YMMV.

I agree, YMMV.
I can tell you that none of our directories have been penalized and our traffic is higher than ever.

Originally Posted by iowadawg

Been seeing this one discussed a lot on other forums, where google is hitting directories hard...dropping them out of rankings, etc.

It is a bit interesting and troubling to see AnthonyCEA's comments in the comment section of that blog article.. His motivation for complaining about signature links, and other types of linking that he has self proclaimed as fraud and scams is because of his own biased opinions of a few people on DP.. I don't have to name the names, because most reading this will know who the are... Call it jealousy, whatever... It's the same old garbage he touts day in and day out.. Yet, he has some of the most hideous BH stuff I've seen to date...

I think his comments in that blog completely invalidate any point anyone was trying to make on either side of the issue...

Ultimately, I really find it hard to believe that google wastes their time singling out Directories as targets against what Google themselves created. The whole SEO craze, linking, or otherwise was born out of Googles own need to suck advertising dollars out of people because they had no other income.

It's a vicious circle, I know... I'm not complaining or cheering for one side of the other.. All I am saying is that Google created the drive for links, ranking, and manipulation of their system... In the end, any and all manipulation of Google, SERPS, ranking, SEO, etc.. is completely and utterly to Googles advantage...

That's how they make money folks.

Bravo, Rasputin!

Well said and 100% right on.

The important thing here is not whether you have a directory, the issue here is whether you sell links in the your directory and simply approve them without actually doing any sort of review/analysis of the said links. Same will hold true in the near future for blogs, bidding directories and article sites. If we were all doing the proper reviews and analysis a good 60% of the sites would not be approved due to the poor quality of the sites being submitted OR proper disclosure (as per Matt Cutts) would be made for those buying links.

Irrespective of Anthonycea comments or anyone elses for that matter, Google has a monopoly and dictate what they want in their index. You want to be on Google, you will need to play by their rules.

cheers

Saw some discussions on some forums about directories.
One point most said to do on your directory is in the guidelines page if you have one, or on the submit page, add a simple sentence and highlight it.
Your site will be reviewed before placement.
Or something to that effect.

My Hideurl.info directory doesn't seem to be any problem with yet. I doubt they actually want to destroy the business for everyone. The directory part of the web is quite big and it wouldn't be very good for anyone if google did that.

Acctually i would probably think alot of users will turn away from google if they do something like this.

Originally Posted by iowadawg

Saw some discussions on some forums about directories.
One point most said to do on your directory is in the guidelines page if you have one, or on the submit page, add a simple sentence and highlight it.
Your site will be reviewed before placement.
Or something to that effect.

hahahaha ... a total crock! That won't get by google let alone a 2 year old. Matt Cutts has made it very clear what google is looking for. Oh and by the way ... remember all those free directories we submitted to and then went paid ... their PR juice won't be passing either. People need to start building value and get away from stand-alone directories, global or niche ... these sites need to provide value and start genuinely reviewing sites that are submitted to their directory and disclosing paid links. Many directory owners are really sloppy, the domino effect has started. As it stands as of this moment .. directories are LINK FARMS and considered in the same boat as FFA links!!!!

LaCabra is it your opinion that they are link farms or do you mean others think so? I dont consider my directory to be a link farm, just like running it as i love browsing websites.

i dont think web directories can be eliminated from Web

I agree with the william. Web directories will stay and never be eliminated from web. Google is trying to monopoly the entire market and this is the main reason why they hit those popular directories. Paid per click program is just another "method" for selling links.

We run 4 general directories... and the bottom line fact is that you have to provide value for the web site owners that is more than just an SEO link. We produce real traffic for submitters. That is what makes a good directory.

Again most people are fanatics and don't really care. Because of false belief that it is a well promoted site without looking if the directory has content or not these people just jump to a conclusion that it is QUALITY. You just dont make a directory of hundreds or thousands category without nothing in it. It is by far better to do a small number if you can maintain it. Why ? Because you have indexed pages without anything and what is the USE of that ? Be GOOD LOOKING and say its STRONG because it has so many strong back links ? Give me a break. So does it serves its real purpose ? Or does it serves just to pass Page Rank which is deception and manipulation ? Let me know if you get a telephone book in your house with blank pages would it serve the purpose of finding even a drugstore to buy some pills for your headache or it only serve as an alternative for toilet use when you run out of toilet paper ? The problem with people is they get to the popularity issue more than analyzing.

Originally Posted by JuggernautH

LaCabra is it your opinion that they are link farms or do you mean others think so? I dont consider my directory to be a link farm, just like running it as i love browsing websites.

JuggernautH...

You pose a very good and genuine question and will try to answer it as best as I can. Please be patient as I have a bit to say.

Traditionally in the 1995-2000 era, (i know I'm dating myself), the directories and for that matter any link pages that were being put together by users were a nice quality collection of sites that individuals thought were of quality and value. More so MANY of these directories and link pages were comprised of both listing that linked to other ON TOPIC informative or business sites. If you dig back in time you will also see that these very directories would also list businesses or individuals that had NO WEBSITE and instead opted in providing address and telephone information so users could contact the corresponding party. Additionally during this time, a directory was not a stand-alone product but a page or several pages of nicely categorized and organized links and other information WITHIN A BIGGER SITE.

To this day I remember listing on DMOZ directory. It wasn't a big deal to do so and heck the editors even proofed and edited descriptions so that it reflected not only accurately for your site but they wrote some descriptions intriguingly enough so that people would actually click to visit your site.

The .com revolution and the emergence of Google changed the true meaning behind the directory. There was money to be made online and many many people wanted a piece of it -even after the dot com bomb. The Google of back then came out of the gate with some genuine and achievable objectives (just as yahoo, altavista and many other search engines). Both Yahoo and Google births occured as university/college experimental ideas which were then brought into main street .coms with IPOs and the sort. Search engines back then had and generated very little revenues.

Let me remind you that in Google's early days it was perfectly ethical to:

- cram 150 links on one page!!
- engage in reciprocal linking
- engage in webrings
- create link networks
- sell links and banners on your sites
- not disclose who were paying advertisers
- etc

Then came the time where Google's superior algorithm was drawing the search masses to their engine. Google now had an audience and they now also wanted a piece of the cake!!!

Here's where everything started going downhill for directories:

1. Google's disclosure that backlinks played a significant role in your SERPs.

(Meanwhile DMOZ continued to mind their own business but saw a huge surge of submissions.)

With this disclosure, one can say that the flood gates opened. The link hounds were off to the races and the paid link commodity was born and the death of genuine and honest link directories or pages commences. We also saw all sort of link schemes hit the market.

2. Google's disclosure that a site's importance and quality (Page Rank) "relies on the uniquely democratic nature of the web by using its vast link structure as an indicator of an individual page's value."

Oh My God the industrial link revolution kicks in!!! Not only do I want to feel important and show off how important my page is but heck I may be able to get money selling links from my site. The page rank commodity is born!! Savvy entrepreneurs job all over this and make a lot of money. So much for the web democracy, Google was starting to breed a capitalist web.

(Meanwhile DMOZ is assigned a high PR and corrupt editors start creaping out of the woodwork, monetizing on their ability to approve links, circumvent the queue and if needed eliminate competitor links)

3. Google's introduction of adsense.

Adsense was another of Google's bright ideas - I mean this genuinely, the concept was ground breaking and primed for success. Not only did it provide them with potential revenue but also provide hungry entrepreneurs with the opportunity to make money as well - both publishers and advertisers. It was a marriage made in heaven.

4. Google's failure to address the real problems.

Bluntly put .. Google failed to anticipate that anyone would even attempt to game their systems. Smart entrepreneurs quickly put 1, 2 and 3 together and MFA sites were born.

The key was, get a domain, pop some content in it and you're in business. Greed and laziness gave to the emergence of directories, and DMOZ was in the crosshairs!! Quite simply put, why bother building a directory when you can just download DMOZ's dump and you are in business? Heck lets not stop there ... lets search Google for category keywords and scrap the content!!! Endless amounts of money were being made and the rags to riches stories were popping up everywhere! With little to no investment people could be making money overnight. Individuals in poorer nations also picked up on the rags to riches stories and started implementing endless amounts of directories. They new that if they could setup 100 directories and each brought in $1 a day in adsense ($100/day accumulatively) they were set! No more $5/day wage in manufacturing plants. Now what if they increased the PR of their directory and advertise a high PR directory on popular webmaster forums -- surely they could start getting $xx/listing, they could support entire families, pay for their education and buy that special something they've alway wanted. The temptation was and is irresistible.

Google now knows its being gamed and it is event to its engineers that they are unable to algorithmically detect many sites that are gaming them. They are spending more and more resources annually to combat the gaming but know that if they make examples of sites they will curb the problem - thus the cracking down on duplicate content, paid links, unnatural linking schemes etc.

Conclusion:

JuggernautH I'm not saying I'm innocent of creating MFA type directories and sites - i'm not, I did when I was inexperienced and hungry for money. But what I can tell you from experience is that the stand-alone directory model is not a longterm solution, heck its not even a short term solution anymore. Why? Because my best performing directory is an old style directory which is part of a bigger site that provides other services.

So are they link farms? If you answer YES to any of these questions I would classify the directory as link farms or poor quality directory that google should penalize.

a) Is your directory a global / broad category directory? eg: Not targeted to a specific niche?

b) Do you solely accept listing with websites so you can link to them?

c) Do you publish minimal information on your listing pages? eg: title, description and maybe a thumbnail of the site?

d) Are your detail pages standard run of the mill pages with no comprehensive company or product information?

e) Do you accept all sites submitted into your directory?

f) Do you have listings in your directory that are straight from DMOZ, scrapped from search results or stolen from other quality directories?

g) Is the directory service the only service and content you offer your visitors?

h) Do you market your directory for its PR value and/or SEO friendliness mainly?

i) Is your base installation a "cookie cutting" of one of your existing directories, you just simply change the URL, skin and directory title and start with the same initial listings?

j) Do you spent minimal time promoting your directory and do not source out quality sites and original content for your site? In other word to you rely on your visitors to provide you with the majority of you directory content?

Originally Posted by williamjack

i dont think web directories can be eliminated from Web

They may not eliminate them but Google will put them down to do a little bottom feeding. Owners will quickly realize that it is not a viable business model, they won't make very much money and drop their sites.

Originally Posted by zinruss

I agree with the william. Web directories will stay and never be eliminated from web. Google is trying to monopoly the entire market and this is the main reason why they hit those popular directories. Paid per click program is just another "method" for selling links.

Its NOT about trying to monopolize. Its about cheaters! Its about gaming the system. Its about useless clutter. Its about zero quality, zero value sites. Its about people trying to make a quick buck with little to no effort. THAT IS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT!!!

Originally Posted by wasabiventures

We run 4 general directories... and the bottom line fact is that you have to provide value for the web site owners that is more than just an SEO link. We produce real traffic for submitters. That is what makes a good directory.

Bravo! Someone's thinking right!!! You will succeed with your directories.


Anyways hope this helps!
cheers everyone!

a) Is your directory a global / broad category directory? eg: Not targeted to a specific niche?

My Answer: it's a general directory with loads of categories (Check HideUrl - Directory, submit links, free links to see what i mean)

b) Do you solely accept listing with websites so you can link to them?

My Answer: No i dont, try to rule out the turnkey sites and such to make the directory the best quality i can. Hell i even go thru urls that are already listed from time to time to rule out dropped domains and parking pages and that.

c) Do you publish minimal information on your listing pages? eg: title, description and maybe a thumbnail of the site?

My Answer: Could be doing better here, listing some info but i am planning to make my directory list more information.

d) Are your detail pages standard run of the mill pages with no comprehensive company or product information?

My Answer: I dont even have detail pages about the sites submitted, they only get a listing within the category and if you buy a featured link you'll get listed on the featured list as well though.

e) Do you accept all sites submitted into your directory?

My Answer: Of course no, check your B question and you will have your answer here.

f) Do you have listings in your directory that are straight from DMOZ, scrapped from search results or stolen from other quality directories?

My Answer: No, dont like using duplicate content so that's nothing i'll do.

g) Is the directory service the only service and content you offer your visitors?

My Answer: Currently yes, but actually i have been planning for quite long to launch some other services. But as i have other websites that i offer services on i haven't done so yet.

h) Do you market your directory for its PR value and/or SEO friendliness mainly?

My Answer: I market it because i want to run a successful directory, do have some of SEO Friendliness in my mind but PR isn't the most important thing. Nor the money i earn with it, doing this because i think it is fun.

i) Is your base installation a "cookie cutting" of one of your existing directories, you just simply change the URL, skin and directory title and start with the same initial listings?

My Answer: No, was going to do that before but as i realy didn't think that would be profitable i didn't.

j) Do you spent minimal time promoting your directory and do not source out quality sites and original content for your site? In other word to you rely on your visitors to provide you with the majority of you directory content?

My Answer: Well i dont promote it to much, but submit to link exchanges and directories and also try to buy some small ammounts of linkage for the directory. Mostly it has been self promoting my directory as people add it to several of those free directory lists and i haven't had to do alot of advertising. Though the directory recieves around 200-700 uniques per day anyway.

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Even if you do believe my directory is a link farm i dont care, as i do it for fun it doesn't hurt me when people give me bad credits for the stuff i've made. Trying my best in what i am best at and i truly dont believe that directories should be only about making money as alot of people do.

Thanks, Frank a nice little history lesson there. I remember hand writing HTML link pages back in the day, those were useful sites that actually took me time to find and then write out the link. This was before everyone was trying to squeeze their few dollars out of the internet.

I think the directories of today are completely useless to people. With domain names like LinkAtMe.net (my former directory) and other random 4 letter domains, how much type in traffic do the owners expect to get? Little to no SEO or promotional work is done, therefore no decent search rankings.. Just what traffic are directory owners looking to get? Bots, that's all.

Never have I seen anyone I know use a directory. I've only used a directory once or twice when searching for look highly specialized.

Personally, I think Google is moving in the right direction. Now if they would only stamp out the crappy MFA sites that fill their index yet provide no information, I'd show some support for the big G.

The only beef I got with the whole situation is Google's position that buying/selling links is evil yet I see adsense ads for Text Link Ads all the time. It's hypocritical, if their stance is selling links is evil, then they shouldn't take a piece of the pie by letting TLA adwords run ads all over the net.

That leads me to believe it's only "evil" because G isn't getting a bigger cut of the pie.

Originally Posted by Big Dan

I think the directories of today are completely useless to people. With domain names like LinkAtMe.net (my former directory) and other random 4 letter domains, how much type in traffic do the owners expect to get? Little to no SEO or promotional work is done, therefore no decent search rankings.. Just what traffic are directory owners looking to get? Bots, that's all.

That is the big problem with 95% of directories coming on line everyday.
No promotion at all, just let people know about them at forums and no more.
Decent webmasters do promote their directories and do get lots of visitors.

@JuggernautH... option B was meant as ... do you allow companies with no website to submit to you directory? Overall, looks like you are not doing too bad but still have a bit to go.

Originally Posted by Big Dan

The only beef I got with the whole situation is Google's position that buying/selling links is evil yet I see adsense ads for Text Link Ads all the time. It's hypocritical, if their stance is selling links is evil, then they shouldn't take a piece of the pie by letting TLA adwords run ads all over the net.

That leads me to believe it's only "evil" because G isn't getting a bigger cut of the pie.

Actually Danny they have no problem with you buying and selling links and actually encourage you to do so. What they do have a problem with is ppl buying/selling for the purpose of increasing their PR or their SERPs. The ask that if you engage in this type of activity that you at least disclose it, use nofollow or javascript/redirect the link so no PR is passed and the link is not counted.

All of adsense is javascript based and many other advertising alternatives are aswell. Text link ads is a different beast and one day they are going to be busted if they haven't already.

cheers
Frank

Well the point of my directory is that it is supposed to be a link directory, but if a company would like to submit withouth a link that's fine as well as i do not realy think that only links would be the thing i'd want to provide in a long term relationship to my customers and my visitors and potential customers.

Originally Posted by JuggernautH

Well the point of my directory is that it is supposed to be a link directory, but if a company would like to submit withouth a link that's fine as well as i do not realy think that only links would be the thing i'd want to provide in a long term relationship to my customers and my visitors and potential customers.

Link directories is one thing...BUSINESS directories is another BETTER option!

Well it sure depends on how you run it also

The fact is that there is a place for directories online. Yahoo was just a directory when it started (now you can't even find their directory).

But you have to add services and become a real site.

We have purchased very few links as a company. But we buy a lot of advertising. We want to drive a lot of traffic. That is the key. Can an advertising placement drive traffic? That is all we ask before we spend a dime.

Originally Posted by JuggernautH

Well it sure depends on how you run it also

Look at aviva and alike ... both very well run directories, but they failed in several other areas. Going through my list I provided above will quickly show you were they went wrong.

The funny thing is that although Google is penalizing outbound links from these directories, it does not seem to be penalizing the PR of these directories themselves. Especially given the fact that alivedirectory is one of the most aggressive link buyers around. If Google wants to destory these directories, all it has to do is to remove their PR completely.

Originally Posted by zxpro168

The funny thing is that although Google is penalizing outbound links from these directories, it does not seem to be penalizing the PR of these directories themselves. Especially given the fact that alivedirectory is one of the most aggressive link buyers around. If Google wants to destory these directories, all it has to do is to remove their PR completely.

You will see the PR penalty once there is a PR update. You will also see that it will not be passing very much outbound PR through its links any longer .

These sites are also not ranking for their brand names anymore:

Google search for: alive directory
Google search for: aviva directory

Originally Posted by LaCabra

You will see the PR penalty once there is a PR update. You will also see that it will not be passing very much outbound PR through its links any longer .

These sites are also not ranking for their brand names anymore:

Google search for: alive directory
Google search for: aviva directory

what does that prove?

Originally Posted by LaCabra

Irrespective of Anthonycea comments or anyone elses for that matter, Google has a monopoly and dictate what they want in their index. You want to be on Google, you will need to play by their rules.

cheers

I get more traffic from ASK and Yahoo than google... IMO, concentrating on getting an even mix of traffic from all the SE's out there, MSN, Yahoo, AOL, ASK, etc.. is going to bring you more in the long run than just focusing on Google...

Google is not the only game in town...

Originally Posted by Rasputin89

what does that prove?

It proves that they no longer make the SERPs for their trade name, which implies that they have been penalized.

Originally Posted by Rasputin89

I get more traffic from ASK and Yahoo than google... IMO, concentrating on getting an even mix of traffic from all the SE's out there, MSN, Yahoo, AOL, ASK, etc.. is going to bring you more in the long run than just focusing on Google...

Google is not the only game in town...

I never said Google was the only game in town!

However, typically google tends to drive most of the traffic to the majority of websites - reason being that they have a somewhat superior indexing algorithm and they have a significant larger reach into the user community.

IF that is not the case for a specific site ( google being the major traffic driver), there may be something unsuspecting going on, eg: site may have been deindexed or penalized within google.

That is true, but many advertisers only care about Google so if they are buying advertising from you they want to know what your PR is. Even if that doesn't really mean anything it means something to many advertisers.

Originally Posted by LaCabra

It proves that they no longer make the SERPs for their trade name, which implies that they have been penalized.

It's only an implication though...

[quote[

I never said Google was the only game in town!

However, typically google tends to drive most of the traffic to the majority of websites - reason being that they have a somewhat superior indexing algorithm and they have a significant larger reach into the user community.

[/quote]

While I agree, they probably have a larger user base.. It is anything but a superior algorithm. I think they phuck with it too much...

IF that is not the case for a specific site ( google being the major traffic driver), there may be something unsuspecting going on, eg: site may have been deindexed or penalized within google.

No, I just see a lot more people using ASK and Yahoo lately...